Our Leaders Just Dont Fall out of the Sky!

CORRUPT LEADERS FOR A CORRUPT PUBLIC?

Present leadership in the Muslim Ummah at any level, from government ministries down to ordinary trustees of Masjids and Islamic institutions hardly qualify for the lofty requirements of leadership in Islam. They lack even the very basic qualities of leadership such as Taqwa (righteousness), Ilm (knowledge) and Ikhlas (sincerity), let alone the vast array of other leadership qualities that make a good Islamic leader. Some even lack Iman yet they head entire Muslim countries, and for decades! (There are rare cases of good leadership but very rare indeed). Muslims all over the world are fed up and frustrated with these tin-pot leaders. They are looking for a way out of the mess they find themselves in mainly due to the inefficiencies of corrupt leaders. But the solution to the problem does not lie only in blaming the leaders. There is also another dimension.

OUR RULERS DON’T FALL OUT O’ THE SKY!

Muslim intellectuals and writers have written extensively on the ills of these corrupt and oppressive rulers, often placing all the blame at their door. It may be correct to attribute part of our suffering and retrogression to these corrupt leaders, but is it fair and just to attribute every problem and misery only to corrupt leadership? Is it not being simplistic to expect that all of the Ummah’s problems will be automatically solved merely with a change of leadership? Are leaders alone guilty and responsible for the malaise of the Ummah? A sensible person would not be expected to answer ‘yes!’ to any of these questions. It would be foolish to assume so. The sad reality of the matter is that the Muslim masses are also guilty. They have a share in the problems that are being experienced. They cannot be totally absolved of blame as many people would like to believe. For in reality, leaders are but a reflection of the public. After all, leaders come from the same public, they don’t just fall out of the sky!

YOUR ACTIONS ARE YOUR RULERS!

Consider the following words of Nabi (sallallahu-alyhi-wasallam) on the relationship between rulers and the ruled:

As you are, so will be the rulers that will be set over you (Mishkaat).

“…The hearts of the rulers are in my control. When My servants obey Me, I turn their leaders towards them in kindness. When My servants disobey Me, I turn their rulers towards them with wrath and anger, then they punish them terribly. So do not engross yourselves in swearing and criticising your rulers but rather engross yourselves in Dua and humble submission so that I may take care of your (oppressive) rulers” – al-I’itidaal

GOOD DEEDS – GOOD RULERS; BAD DEEDS – BAD RULERS

It follows clearly from these Ahadith that leaders are installed upon men by virtue of their actions and deeds. Good deeds – good rulers; bad deeds – bad rulers. A simple, inescapable reality. This is also in line with common sense in that good leaders will not be appreciated by a corrupt people. In fact they would be in grave danger of harm from their corrupt subjects. The only people to keep them in check would be corrupt and cruel leaders.

Source: CaptiveMinds.org 

33 thoughts on “Our Leaders Just Dont Fall out of the Sky!

  1. ahaan…

    well, muslims don’t usually discuss this much… it’s one of those things they’d be embarrassed to talk about but;

    3 out of four of those “rightly guided caliphs” were assassinated. the only one who wasn’t ruled for only 2 years..

    you admire THAT generation? THOSE people and THAT precedent?

    those were the “good old days” ??😛

    and what did you remove from my previous post…? and why? i wasn’t profane or anything

  2. @Salahudin

    Thanks! You helped me prove my point further.

    The first four caliphs were indeed the best. They were good rulers but the evil elements of the society were not able to tolerate good rulers – hence they were assassinated.

    Assassination of a ruler does not imply that they were bad! who ever gave you that idea?

    when people are evil, they dont like good rulers ! please re-read what i wrote in my post:

    “This is also in line with common sense in that good leaders will not be appreciated by a corrupt people. In fact they would be in grave danger of harm from their corrupt subjects. The only people to keep them in check would be corrupt and cruel leaders.”

    And i think you misunderstand the term “Best Generation”
    Abu Lahab and Abu Jahal were also of that generation, but they are not at all “good!”

    The best generation is the Sahabas, the companions of Prophet Muhammad (saw) , then the coming generation who met them – the tabaeen and then those who met Tabaeen and followed them -the taba tabaeen.

    The assasins and the corroupt people of that ere would obviously not be considered amongst the best!

    Your post was edited because you called me “javi” kindly do not refer to me like that.

  3. [removed]

    clearly the system they established was very poor: a system that had its head of state assassinated 3 out of 4 times.

    and the so-called “best generation” was also fighting itself… or have you ALSO forgotten about ayesha’s war with ali?

    that is not a good past to idolize.

    how about a liberal democracy instead?

    definition: where elections are held on a regular basis, suffrage is nearly universal, power is transfered peacefully and civil liberties like protection against unreasonable arrests, freedom of religion, freedom of speech etc are guaranteed.

    this sort of system hasmany merits but the best one is that liberal democracies have *never* fought wars against each other… in human history! And about after 23 years of being established, not a single liberal democracy has fallen from internal factors?
    🙂

  4. @ Salahuddin

    I am fully aware about the Battle of Jamal between Aisha (ra) and Ali (ra) . However you do not seem to have a clear picture of Islam.

    Islam does not consider any human being fallible or free from mistakes or to be a saint.

    The Sahabas were humans who could err and make mistakes. The assassinations and the battle of Jamal are indeed sad chapters in Islamic History – That is why they were called Fitnas – and you need to study the causes of these fitnas to come to the right conclusion as to why they happend and what went wrong where.

    However no body is “idolizing” these times of Fitnas. Who ever gave you that idea? (please read my post judging islam – where we go wrong)

    Secondly – my post is not about which system is successful and which isnt – it is not about “how to select” your ruler.

    I am merely saying that if people are corrupt – the rulers over them would be corrupt as well.

  5. Your post is something I almost completely agree with and even admire. but the discussion is on a different topic.

    My point is that when you call them the “best generation”, you’re implying that it’s okay to declare war on the regime just because you disagree with them.

    however when you compare it to the way liberal democracies are now, you’ll realize that the current generation is better than the so-called “best generation” you refer to, at least in terms of peace, political regime change and peaceful protests.

    The sahabis are not to be admired for their political life at all because they have such huge blemishes on their record.

  6. Javeria, I am amazed. Kya lagta he, kya kar rahi ho tum. Ali (Razi Allah o Anhu) aur Aisha (Razi Allah o Anha) ke darmiyaan jung karwanay waley koi doosre loag naheen thay. Mujhe samajh ye naheen aata ke munafiq kyoon nazar naheen aatay. Aur agar nazar aatay hain tou un ko apne andar kyoon ghusne diya jata he. Aur ye tou phir bhi murtid he. Nikalo bahar. Itna tou kar hi sakti ho.

    ——————
    SALAHUDDIN’S PROFILE:

    Age: 21
    Location: Pakistan
    Left Islam because: Philosophical differences with the idea of Heaven and Hell, an intense distaste of cultural relativism and tribalistic tendencies within Islam and in Islamic scholarly opinion, Hadith and Quran. Many other issues.
    Quote: ‘You can’t pick and choose from your religion. Accept the whole thing or nothing’ said my people (Muslims). “FINE, ugly [[removed] I choose nothing!” said I.
    ——-[]

    21 saal ke hain philosophy ki baat karte hain. Philosophers ke baap Socrates ne DEMOCRACY ko refute kiya tha tou us ko tum jaise logon ne qatl kar diya rape ka ilzaam laga ke. Woh muslim naheen tha 450-500 B.C. pehle ki baat he. Shayad tha ye us ka aur allah ka muamla. Us ke baad bhi Democracy aaj tak kisi Philosopher ne recommend naheen ki. Philosophy ki baat karta he. Plato, Aristotle, Al-Farabi, Avicenna, Averose, Al-Ghazali kis ke falsafay mein Democracy nazar aagai. Aur Heaven aur Hell ke idea mein koi philosophical differences naheen hain is ke liye Tafseer Zamakhashri parh sakte hain. Lekin us ke liye tum tayyar naheen.

    Please delete all of his posts.

  7. [Removed: personal attack/offensive language]

    first of all, your history is absolutely wrong. socrates never had any allegations of rape on him. if he did, then go ahead and give me some academic source… not of a pakistani origin.🙂

    aur kis nay kahan kisee philosopher nay democracy recommend naheen kari!? hahhaha democracy kiya musharraf [removed] nay banai thee phir? hahhaha don’t be silly. go read up thomas aquinas, or voltaire… thomas hobbes maybe?

    and yeah it’s true socrates argued against democracy… but this is the problem with you muslims. you just think the older the person in historical terms, the better he or she knew. lol. socrates was a flippin’ genius for sure, but he made many idiotic assertions. his argument against democracy were totally flawed. especially the way Imanuel Kant destroyed them…

    javier, why do you think muslims are intolerant of dissident opinions, like your friend adeel?

    this is why muslims are in such bad shape; they’re unwilling to engage in dialog. YOU are an exception and i’m glad.

  8. Salahuddin Adeel is right,u dont know any thing about islam,if u are not a muslim then first get proper knowledge and i think that u have to listen Dr.Zakir.
    [removed]

    Javairia ,i dont know when some body did discussion then u interfere and said that this sight is only for discussion not for fighting now what u say about this man.

    Secondly write Amma Ayesha r.a and Hazrat Ali.
    Adeel is fuly right in his post.

    [removed] tum behtar hai kai pehlay study karo u are in bad sahape not islam [removed]

  9. Tareef pe tareef kiye ja rahe ho host ki, is liye ab tak tumhare comments salamat hain.

    Socrate par allegation ke liye, “Plato’s The Republic” by Desmond Lee check karo, penguin classics. Angrezi mein he tum parh loge, mujhe umeed. Main ne mutarjim saath rakkha tha. Kant ki dhajjiyan kaise urein ye bhi mil jaayega us mein.

    Democracy matlab tu aur main barabar. Ye tou bekaar ki baat hogai. Ab agar mujhe acha jaan tou bhi aur bura samajh tou bhi.

    Socrates ko better muslims samajhte hain tou pata naheen kyoon itne tarjume karne wale muslims kyoon naheen thay. Socratic way of teaching naam main ne hi tou diya he aizaaz mein.

    Tou kis ne kaha muslim intolerant naheen. Hoon bhai main intolerant. Tou… Ukhaar lo ge kuchh? Naam badal naheen sakte baatein karte hain.

    Aur please humein mat bataou muslims bad shape mein kyoon hain. Jab tum jaise saare loag hamari ummat se nikal jaayeinge us din sab ye bad shape sahi hojaayegi.

    Eeman tou itna mazboot he ke aa ke aap ko qatl kar doon aur phir phaansi par charh jaaoun. Bas resources ki thori kami he. Haan jin saheba ki blog he un ke eemaan ke baare mein kuchh naheen keh sakta. aap un se hi baat kijiye un ko bardaasht hain aap jaise loag.

    I am always open for the dialogues. But when I read your few comments above and the style you followed, you know with a little lol and few smilies and the likes. It made all clear to me that I need not go into dialogues with this idiot and that reminds me the phrase.

    “Never argue with an idiot. They pull you down to their level, then beat you with experience”

    Aur baraye meherbaani main javeria ka friend naheen hoon. Bhai hoon deeni aitebaar se. bara naheen tou chhota bhi naheen.

    [removed]

    Javeria is ke comments hataou naheen tou main tumhari blog ka visitor naheen rahoonga. Shayad tumhein koi farq naheen parey lekin is se ziyada main kuchh naheen karsakta filwaqt. Irfan ka mujhe pata naheen.

  10. Your “may be” Thomas Hobbes did nothing as an advocate of democracy. His influences are Plato, Aristotle, Descrates, Thucidydes. So, it cleared his inclination. No doubts.

    Your Thomas Aquinas was fairly persuaded with the teaching of Islam, he was a Christian priest, though. Nonetheless, still inflicted by faith. His popular influences are Aristotle, Avicenna, Averroes and Al-Ghazali.

    So, it saves you just Volitaire. Volitaire is his pen name. He was basically an enlightenment writer and essayist. As far as we know pen name is common among the writers not among philosopher. However, he has done few philosophical works too, but basically he was a deist. Deist is the person who believes in freedom of religion. I have a very good phrase for that kind of people,

    “The price of freedom of religion, or of speech, or of the press, is that we must put up with a good deal of rubbish.” – Robert Jackson

    Furthermore, you wouldn’t find more people influenced from him. The most popular influenced personality is Victor Hugo. Apparently, he was a poet, novelist, artist, etc. but not a philosopher.

  11. “Tareef pe tareef kiye ja rahe ho host ki, is liye ab tak tumhare comments salamat hain.”

    now you’re insulting javeria…

    ““The price of freedom of religion, or of speech, or of the press, is that we must put up with a good deal of rubbish.” – Robert Jackson”

    that quote and that person is actually in favor of free speech. which is to say that there is a price of free speech, but it’s a price all civil people are willing to pay.🙂 after all, javeria’s listening to both of us right now isn’t she!?😛

    And you’ve been reading the wrong material of socrates… maybe if you read the original author of the socrates character… a chap by the name of plato… you know, the guy who created him? there’s a little dialog he wrote… called “The Apology”.

    you can read first hand what accusations he was charged with… none of which have anything to do with rape.

    maybe you didn’t know most scholars don’t think socrates really existed…?

    in any case, it’s pretty clear you haven’t read his actual works. nor thomas aquinas’.

    You’re a Muslim and yet you’re referring to Ibn Rushd and Ibn Sina by their western names…

    what knowledge do you really have, adeel bhai? [removed]

  12. Yes, I insulted Javeria. Ab….

    The) Apology (of Socrates) is Plato’s version of the speech given by Socrates as he defends himself against the charges of being a man “who corrupted the young, did not believe in the god, and created new deities”

    If you really care to study Socrates then you will know that Plato brings his work in front of us and sometimes contradicted with Socrates. That proves that he was a real man. And even, if take it as a character even then the story would remain the same you just need to take socrates out and plato in as a whole. The idea would remain the same.

    The Republic is also written by Plato, the brother of Adeimatus and Glaucon. Both of his elder brothers were friend of Socrates.

    You didn’t handle with the rubbish in your interpretation of the phrase.

    I apologize for what I said about the rape charges that was a mistake and now when I went through the books again. I didn’t get that thing anywhere. I suppose I mixed something with the other. I whole heartedly accepting my mistake.

    “A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing.” – George Bernard Shaw

    [removed].

    “Never argue with an idiot. They pull you down to their level, then beat you with experience”. And I chose to keep quite.

  13. Asalamu Alaykum,

    Dear brothers, due to your personal attacks and offensive language against each other i have had to edit your comments and start moderating each and every comment.

    I had been busy and was not aware of the mud slinging war you guys were upto on my blog.

    Since im at work at the moment, i can not give a detailed reply now. I will Inshallah reply to each one of you soon.

    Wasalam,
    Javeria.

  14. Javairia i am with Adeel because a best muslim is who like Ghazi ilum deen and i want to become ghazi ilum deen.
    why u removed my words and why dont u removed Murtadid dien which he wrote against my and evry muslim Amma Ayesha R.A and Rasool S.A.W as he wrote only their names without repect then tell me if any body say any thing to my mother and father what i can do .
    Javaira pl discuss on this blog on islam not against islam,we have to convince any muslim who discuuss with us in proper manner but behaving against our beloved AMMAJAAN then pl closed ur blog as u and we involve in this sin if we left Murtid dien like people.
    I request again dont mind of my and Adeel language its for islam.
    Why u removed Murtid dien comments we have to know what he said because now iam asking him why he and his family become and behave like rascals as he already in above post to whole muslims.
    Now iam thinking may be u are with him and i also request u like Adeel pl remove Murtid DIEN.
    U argue against us u urself javairia offense him when he wrote his post i think u are also a great muslim uptill now.
    i want to write more but for thinkers its enough.

  15. For all who are in b logs either muslim or non muslim they all know that we muslim always give respect to all Nabis,Rasool,sahaba,sahabiaat etc so they all have to repect.
    And this shows muslims nature other than non muslims who are in bad shape not muslims.

  16. First of all i would like to say to javaria that why u did discussion with Murtid dien AND WHY u remove our remarks and his also because i would become Ghazi ilum deen.
    Secondly why u urself point and stop him wrting names not in respect of Amma Ayesha R.A and Rasool S.A.W.
    We should know what he wrote as he himself wrote that muslims are bad in shape now what he say about himself.
    I am with Adeel andmuslim like him.
    I am shocked that u dont have time on this issue and pl either remove his posts or remove ur blog if u cant do this.
    Dont mind its a serious matter.i wrote but dont know how it remove.iam again writing.
    We have to convince people but not doing discuusion in foolish manner or listening bad things against our Rasool ,sahba,sahabiat etc.
    We muslims never say any thing to any one all Nabi and Rasool are respect full for us.
    I think its enough for thinkers.

  17. I don’t know why but I would like to make few more comments. Not for the sake of argument, as I already said that it will result in nothing and would definitely go futile. But this is rather to help the jury and the speculators.

    You mentioned, that Immanuel Kant destroyed Socrates arguments against democracy, but contrariwise He opposed democracy, which at his time meant direct democracy, believing that majority rule posed a threat to individual liberty. Moreover, He said that democracy is necessarily a despotism, because it establishes an executive power in which “all” decide for or even against one who does not agree; that is, “all”, who are not quite all, decide, and this is a contradiction of the general will with itself and with freedom. He gave several conditions regarding political system, those are included in “Constitutional Republic”

    – refs Perpetual Peace. Kant, Immanuel

  18. Adeel is right all go in futile.As we are doing discussion not doing to convince in favour of islam but giving arguments in evry post on differant topices.its good to close this.

  19. @ Adeel & Irfan
    Asalamu Alaykum,

    Brother Adeel and Irfan,

    I just want to ask you guys one simple question. What would you do if your very own “saga” brother or your own father or your very own saga son or your grandson became an apostate?

    Would you behave the same way like you did here? Would you tell him to get lost and refuse to even look and speak to him? Would you kill him ? murder him? if he asks you questions and is wanting a dialog would you still kick him out of the house and start abusing him?

    Or would you try reason with him? engage in dialog, explain the real Islam to him, clear up his confusion and his doubts?

    This is exactly what i am doing. If an apostate asks me something reasonably, i am obliged and i am responsible as a Muslim to give him an answer.

    And brother Adeel you are dead wrong if you think that you can go murder an apostate yourself! . Seems like you do not know that the Hadd punishment in Islam can not be applied by individuals and citizens. It is the responsibility of the state to apply hadd punishments.

    So what should individuals do if they come across an apostate? Take a knife and kill him? WRONG you would be committing a major sin of murder then. On an individual level one should reason with the apostate and try and clear his doubts about Islam.
    and this is what I am doing.

    Are you aware that apostasy is on the rise in Pakistan?

    A few years ago one of my colleagues would usually argue with me about Islam and he declared himself to be an atheist. I know a few more girls who have declared that they are atheists.

    Don’t you find this alarming? it could be some one you knw next! ! Don’t you reflect and analyze what is going wrong which is turning people away from Islam? I blame no one else but us muslims!

    They are leaving Islam NOT because Islam is wrong but because of the attitude of the Muslims. It is mostly kids from dysfunctional families & broken homes, who are turning apostate. Then the differences and negative attitude of parents leads them further away from Islam.

    One other reason people leave Islam is because of difference of opinions amongst scholars, but more than that the rigidity of Muslims to hear out other opinions and the resulting difference further harms such people.

    so the best way to counter this is to give such people the correct perception, the correct angle of Islam instead of taking law into your own hands and going on a murtid kill spree!

    Hazrat Nooh (as) tried till the very end to reason with his son and make him board the ship. However when the decree of Allah came, then there was no sympathizing.

    So you aught to reason and have a dialogue with him, but if the state enforces hadd punishment or of he is punished by Allah subhana watala, then there will be no sympathizing on our part.

    regarding him not saying radiallahu anhum for Hazrat Ali (ra) and hazrat Aisha (ra)- then please be aware that millions of non-muslims around the world do the same.

    If a christian or a Jew asks about Islam and does not say saw or ra for our Prophet and his companions – then will you refuse to talk to him and refuse to tell him the truth of Islam?

    Will you pressurize him to say ra and saw before you tell him about Islam – i think not!

    You can not force anybody to say ra or saw. Yes indeed it is very important for muslims to say this, but it is an obligation on the muslim not the non-muslims and apostates and you can not force this.

    However the use of any other disrespectful word wouldn’t be tolerated.

    When treaty of hudabiyah was being signed, the Quraish refused to sign a treaty because they disagreed with the title Rasool Allah saw – so Rasool Allah saw himself erased the words “Rasool Allah saw” and made Hazrat Ali ra write Muhammad bin Abdullah on the treaty. Learn some tolerance from the Seerah guys!

    similarly, an old woman used to dump trash on our Prophet saw every day. However Rasool Allah never ever cursed her. When people of Taif threw stones at him and he was badly injured -he still did not curse them or abuse them! Infact he prayed for their guidance. These are not just stories okay! there are lessons in Quran for us to understand and IMPLEMENT in our life.

    Sadly many many muslims have all the information about Islam, they pray and fast and do Hajj but the Basics of Islam THE AKHLAQ or Good Manners are missing from many muslims.

    irfan and Adeel – where in Islam did you learn that its okay to abuse non muslims ?? and “bad language for islam” you have got to be kidding!

    Regarding your allegations about me and my emaan – then please be aware that i am neither looking for any approval nor am i scared of any disapproval from anybody – be it muslims, murtids or kafirs!

    If you both think otherwise then you both are indulging in “slandering” a muslim woman which is a major sin!

    How can you say that i am “WITH” the murtid while i am negating what he is saying and giving the right picture of Islam??!!

    If i do not agree with your view of individually taking law into my hand and murdering a murtid – does that mean i am with the murtid? If i am not with you then i am with him! what kind of a stupid logic is this!

    learn to live with differences brothers – everybody is different – there are and there always will be gray areas in Islam in which people will disagree, but sadly when such things happen – muslims immediately start doubting the emaan of others and declare them kafirs – just like you both started doubting my eman.

    Only Allah knows the true intentions and the level of emaan of muslims!

    My intention Allah knows and even the apostate’s intention Allah knows. If his intention is to ridicule Islam by asking me questions then Allah is there to judge and if his intention is to really know about Islam, then taking naseehat and understanding my views is in his own hand.

    sorry for this long comment but i felt this was necessary and i apologize if I hurt your feelings but i have to be honest as Allah is all knower and all Seer.

    You are welcome to read and comment on my blog, however if you don’t want to because of my “weak emaan” then you are welcome to stop reading it too.

    Wasalam,
    javeria.

  20. @ Salahuddin

    I would like to stress that you should say radiallahu anhum for the sahabas. It is good manners that when you are interacting with some one, you respect them and their religion and their religious personalities even if you don’t agree with them.

    The Sahabas have been called the best generation because Allah Subhanawatala says in the Quran “Radiallahu Anhum” Which means He is pleased with them.( The sahabas) and paradise has been promised to them.

    Their character, faith, trust on Allah, love for Rasool, their worships, their sacrifices were all on the level of excellence.But because of their few judgment errors being humans , all their good can never be wiped out especially since Allah is pleased with them.

    You Said:
    My point is that when you call them the “best generation”, you’re implying that it’s okay to declare war on the regime just because you disagree with them.

    I never implied that its okay to declare war on the regime. It is your own misunderstanding. Please read my posts regarding the lal masjid issue.

    You said:
    “however when you compare it to the way liberal democracies are now, you’ll realize that the current generation is better than the so-called “best generation” you refer to, at least in terms of peace, political regime change and peaceful protests.”

    Are you living in utopia or something? which liberal democracy do you find where there is no corruption and where there is peace!?

    Whatever system of government there will be, the leaders will reflect the state of their citizens. That is all there is to this article i posted.

    All im implying is that this state of emergency, the corruption of our leaders musharraf, benazir nawaz sharif etc is due to the fact that all us Pakistanis are corrupt.

    ————————————————————————–
    @ everybody

    Off topic comments, personal attacks, accusations, abusive language, disrespectful words about Muslim personalities and scholars will not be entertained on this blog.

  21. Javairia first tell what is the punishment of murtid in islam.
    What u done when some body call name of ur father,mother,sister,brother or kidnap ur sister etc.either u politely deal with them.
    Secondly,i kill all of them either my relatives in the love of Rasool S.A.W.
    I dond know this guy is muslim or non muslims,but non muslims also with respect behave, not mentioning S.A.W or r.a is not matter, but if language is not good then it should be objectionable.
    but in case of Rushdi what u say,why whole muslims ulema and scholar including people want to kill murtid.
    Tell them pl convince him with politeness.
    NOTE;
    By writing post u cant convince any body as u said because it should be live talk with any body to convince because many points missed and discussion go long as in case of lal masjid.
    u said u were convincing that guy,so for ur information he already listen many scholars including Dr.zakir so it means he is playing with us pl use common sense.
    its good if u do discussion but u have to beware as u and we all are just discuusing on behalf of ulema and scholars saying , as we all are not scholars.
    I have many Waqaiaat in the same manner in which sahaba kill murtid etc.
    Madam, matter is this that this guy know evry thing secondly first he misbehave then us.
    It is easy that evry time muslims blame muslims pl left this drama this is american technology never muslims misbehave first its a history.
    What u say about this that islam spread on sword?
    Pl,pl try to uder stand we are not children and other who behave like us in the same case but its natural.
    U are with murtid i dont mean that, thats why iam saying just writng post on such issue u cant convince any body.
    Note:
    I again want to say that if a non muslim who have education and read about islam and then he beahave like this then pl dont say to come and have a cup of tea.
    Actually every body take it persoanl as u did,we only awaring u that if somebody do like this then it seems that its emaan become week it is for us also.
    Muslims attitude always best in wole world the problem is this that when muslims say anything evry body say see islam ,pl read differant waqaiaat which are totally explaining this that uptill some time u have to behave properly otherwise do what sahaba did in Ghazwa Badar and other incidents etc.
    Taking law in hand for the sake of Rasool S.AW ,sahaba r.a,sahabiaat r.a i wish that.
    What u say about suleh Hudaibiya when muslims got news of shahada of Hazrat usman Ghani r.a.
    -U quote differant incident like Hazrat Nooh A.S then madam at that time he was alone he never say anything to those also who did badly with his ship.
    -That old women was so old thats why.
    -Rasool S.A.W not wrote his name when mushrik argue,it doesnt mean that Rasool S.AW wrote his name witout it.
    Now again H.Q say that dont do long discusion etc ,etc.
    So thats why i sad that close blog and only inform people if u want.
    I dont whether u understand this or not because just reading u cant understand oter point of view.
    Most important is also this that most of the shiaas are participating here so we cant say any thing .
    Thats why i want to request to listen Dr zakir u all get evry answer.

  22. Javairia,why u say this guy to write R.A AND S.A.W as u said us u cant force any non muslim.i dont know this double standerd.
    U say nothing to him as he also misbehaved i dont know what he wrote.
    I again say that dont remove anything so every body come to know every thing which any body wrote we are giving answres not fighting or misbehave.
    Every body come to know the picture of now a days non muslims who themselves called literate etc.
    In last u said pakistani are corrupt then what about rest of muslims world.
    Pl talk about umma not for pakistan because in islam no value of pakistan or any other country as we have to talk always about umma.Countries have no value in islam as there is only KHILAFAT-E-RAASHIDA in islam which is no where now a days and umma strugling for this.
    Every body long ago discuss democracy issue so why we do only listening bad names for muslims .

  23. @ irfan

    Brother irfan i have advised him to say ra and saw – however i can not force. All i can do is convey the message in good intention.

    secondly i have removed most of the direct personal attacks on each other from everyones comments. I want everybody to maintain decency while speaking to each other.

    I dont think you read my comment properly. I am well aware what the punishment of murtid is in Islam. However, this hadd punishment can only be given by the state. Not individually. If you want to take the law in your own hands in love of Rasool Allah saw then im sorry you are going against the teaching of Rasool Allah saw that hadd punishment can only be implemented by the state – not individually.

    You mentioned Ghazw e Badar: That was a full fledge war with the mushriks. Here there is no war.

    You said he has already heard many scholars and does not believe and his intention is bad. Please read what i wrote:

    “My intention Allah knows and even the apostate’s intention Allah knows. If his intention is to ridicule Islam by asking me questions then Allah is there to judge and if his intention is to really know about Islam, then taking naseehat and understanding my views is in his own hand.”

    JazakAllah very much for the advice of being cautious. I am being cautious. so no need to worry. Only relevant comments are approved.

    You mentioned Dr.Zakir Naik. Please listen to Dr. Zakir Naiks lecture about taslima Nasreen and salman rushdi i.e. how to deal with murtids.

    I said pakistanis are corrupt that is why our rulers and government is corrupt. This observation is based on the hadith of Rasool Allah saw:

    “As you are, so will be the rulers that will be set over you“ (Mishkaat).

    and obviously this can be applied to any country around the world.

    This is just an observation due to the current political scenario in pakistan.

  24. “which liberal democracy do you find where there is no corruption and where there is
    peace!?”

    i never said there is “no corruption”, but if you would like to take a look at the levels of corruption:

    http://www.transparency.org/publications/gcr/download_gcr/download_gcr_2006

    You’ll notice liberal democracies are the least corrupt in the world.

    you’re arguing against a position i don’t hold, nor did i ever argue for. I never said there is no corruption in liberal democracies.

    COMPARED to what you say is the “best generation” etc, the current generation living in liberal democracies is far less corrupt. that calls in to question whether the islamic caliphate idea is actually the most “ideal system” or not.

  25. Javeria – I just want to ask you guys one simple question. What would you do if your very own “saga” brother or your own father or your very own saga son or your grandson became an apostate?

    Me – Actually killing him would be the responsibility of the Caliph of the time or say government or whatever. So, I would just say him get lost. If he were the father of mine then I would get lost myself.

    Javeria – Would you behave the same way like you did here? Would you tell him to get lost and refuse to even look and speak to him? Would you kill him ? murder him? if he asks you questions and is wanting a dialog would you still kick him out of the house and start abusing him?

    Me – Yes, possibly. If anyone would like to do reasoning, he would have chosen it before becoming an apostate.

    Javeria – Or would you try reason with him? engage in dialog, explain the real Islam to him, clear up his confusion and his doubts?

    Me – No, because the time for those stuff is already over at this stage.

    Javeria – This is exactly what i am doing. If an apostate asks me something reasonably, i am obliged and i am responsible as a Muslim to give him an answer.

    Me – You might think that question as reasonable. Not every question. In fact, you don’t have the experience right now. I don’t the their intentions. Just go to faithfreedom.org and try to participate in the debate. Just do this for a week. And then come to me and give me your opinion on that. Even the Zakir Naik wouldn’t do that. These people belongs to the same group.

    Javeria – And brother Adeel you are dead wrong if you think that you can go murder an apostate yourself! . Seems like you do not know that the Hadd punishment in Islam can not be applied by individuals and citizens. It is the responsibility of the state to apply hadd punishments.

    Me – I know that thats why I am not there in pakistan with his photo in my hand, asking for his address.

    Javeria – So what should individuals do if they come across an apostate?

    Me – Pass him without even noticing him. And if one found an apostate some place, one himself belongs to, then Kick him out.

    Javeria – Take a knife and kill him?

    Me – Would be wrong, but would not be too bad.

    Javeria – you would be committing a major sin of murder then. On an individual level one should reason with the apostate and try and clear his doubts about Islam.

    Me – He is doing all this purposely. Can’t you understand the tone.

    Javeria – Are you aware that apostasy is on the rise in Pakistan?

    Me – Yes, because I have no record of killing, officially, anybody in the charge of apostasy in Pakistan. So, they are rising, simple.

    Javeria – A few years ago one of my colleagues would usually argue with me about Islam and he declared himself to be an atheist. I know a few more girls who have declared that they are atheists.

    Me – Yeah, its happening everywhere. Even in other muslim countries. In Malaysia you can’t become an apostate fully, you have hide your apostasy. And yes Islamic Republic of Pakistan and its People….

    Javeria – Don’t you find this alarming? it could be some one you knw next! ! Don’t you reflect and analyze what is going wrong which is turning people away from Islam? I blame no one else but us muslims!

    Me – Here I would like to agree with you. Its because we muslim are not dealing with apostate in the way Islam ordered us to do.

    Javeria – They are leaving Islam NOT because Islam is wrong but because of the attitude of the Muslims. It is mostly kids from dysfunctional families & broken homes, who are turning apostate. Then the differences and negative attitude of parents leads them further away from Islam.

    Me – Anyway, they are wrong. And please be informed. They are working for foreign organisations and making good amount of money out of that. Yes, not a single person stated your version of reason in that website, I gave you. You can still find the url under that murtid’s name.

    Javeria – One other reason people leave Islam is because of difference of opinions amongst scholars, but more than that the rigidity of Muslims to hear out other opinions and the resulting difference further harms such people.

    Me – Because they really don’t wanna know the truth. They don’t love the truth in its true sense.

    Javeria – so the best way to counter this is to give such people the correct perception, the correct angle of Islam instead of taking law into your own hands and going on a murtid kill spree!

    Me – Kuchh bhi shuru karne se pehle dekhna chahiye ke kis tarah shuru kiya jaaye. Jis object pe kaam kiya jaata he us ka pehle jaayeiza liya jaata he. Aur agar maaloom hojaye ke bekaar he is par kaam karna tou naheen kiya jaata.

    Javeria – Hazrat Nooh (as) tried till the very end to reason with his son and make him board the ship. However when the decree of Allah came, then there was no sympathizing.

    Me – So, what happened in the end. Muhammad (s.a.w.) was doing similar thing, too but Allah told him to don’t bother to invite these people they wouldn’t listen. And its for sure.

    Javeria – Regarding your allegations about me and my emaan – then please be aware that i am neither looking for any approval nor am i scared of any disapproval from anybody – be it muslims, murtids or kafirs!

    Me – Ignorants doesn’t really care. I am not trying to say you ignorant, but just giving you one more type of people who don’t really care.

    Javeria – If you both think otherwise then you both are indulging in “slandering” a muslim woman which is a major sin!

    Me – You mis-interpreted. That one is specific to character. Otherwise, it would apply to all without the distinction of sex. Moreover, I have just said, I am not sure about your Eeman. Thats it.

    Javeria – How can you say that i am “WITH” the murtid while i am negating what he is saying and giving the right picture of Islam??!!

    Me – Ab khud murtid keh rahi ho. Irfan ne kaha tha tou remove kar diya tha. I have just said, “tumhein bardaasht hain aise loag”.

    Chhoro yaar. Jaao roshni dikhao. Main aadmi dekh kar hi roshni dikhaya karta hoon, kisi andhey ko roshni dikha ke waqt barbaad karna meri aadat naheen. Us ko aap dikhaou.

    “Us shakhs ke mumin hone par shak karo, jo ek suraakh se do baar dasa jaaye”

  26. Waise jahan se tum guzar rahi ho, wahan se main guzar chuka. Khair insaan kisi ke experience se kam hi seekhta he. Khud experience karna chahta he. Is liye insaan waheen khara he aur science taraqqi kar rahi he. Kyoon ke sceince mein pichhley logon ke kaam ko aagay barhaate hain, thora sa jaanchne ke baad. Khud shuru se kaam karne naheen lag jaate.

    “we learn from history that man can never learn anything from history.” – Hegel

  27. “Ek Shakhs imam tha tamam loag us ke peechhe namaz ada karte thay. Ek din kuchh muqtadi Umar Farooq (r.a.) ke paas aaye aur us shakhs ki shikayat ki keh ye hamesha falan surat ki tilawat karta he, us ke ilawa koi aur surat naheen parhta. Umar Farooq (r.a.) ne usay bulwaya aur wajeh daryaaft ki. Tou us ne kaha mujhe maza aata he. Is surat mein Allah ne Muhammad (s.a.w.) ko daant pilaai he. Umar Farooq (r.a.) ne us shakhs ke qatl ka hukum de diya.”.

    Woh tou murtid bhi naheen tha.

    “Ek aur buhat mashhoor rivayat he jab Umar Farooq (r.a.) ne ek shakhs ko qatl kardiya ye jaante huey ke woh sahi kar rahe hain. Baad mein muamla Muhammad (s.a.w.) wassallam ke paas laya gaya. Aur is se pehle ke Muhammad (s.a.w.) koi faisla sunaatey ayat nazil hui. Jis ke ma’ani kuchh youn thay keh, Aap ye kya kar rahe hain, jo sahi he us ko hi saza suna rahe hain”.

    Tou aadmi ko ma’aloom hojata he kabhie jab hi woh sakht iqdaam karta he. Khair Umar Farooq (r.a.) ka rutbay tak tou kya koi ponhchega. Hum tou bas un se kuchh seekh hi sakte hain. Aur na hi hum kisi baat mein un ki tarah sahi hosakte hain. Isi liye mera mashwara qatl ka naheen tha bas comments totally delete karne ka tha. Khair aap roshni dikhaaiye.

  28. @ Salahuddin

    You said:
    “COMPARED to what you say is the “best generation” etc, the current generation living in liberal democracies is far less corrupt.that calls in to question whether the islamic caliphate idea is actually the most “ideal system” or not.”

    You gave me the link for corruption statistics to prove liberal democracies are far less corrupt. But you have no such “statistical report” to show the corruption at the time of rightly guided caliphs. Hence your comparison is illogical.

    Furthermore, you have missed my point entirely. Weather it be a caliphate system, a democracy or a feudal system of governance – the rulers will merely reflect the state of the people. Which system is less corrupt is not the point. There will be and there always is corruption everywhere- but if the majority is corrupt they will end up with corrupt rulers.The ideal system is a system where the people are good and rulers are good and the ideal system is the one based on laws of God.

    If you do not believe in God and if you do not believe that Quran is the word of God- all you need to do is make one chapter like that in the Quran which is as eloquent as Quranic Arabic and as meaningful as the Quran. That is the challenge God has set for anybody who does not believe.

    @ Adeel
    If you agree that the hadd punishment can only be implemented by the state,then why did you scream out the minute you realized he was a murtid/apostate that i would have killed if i had the means? Going against the principles of Islam eh?
    Also please learn to provided references of hadiths and narrations when you quote any.

    —————————————————–
    THIS POST IS NOW CLOSED FOR COMMENTS

  29. Chalo Allah ka karam hua ek ka tou reference mil gaya. Fikr not, doosre ka bhi insha allah mil jaayega.

    Is se ziyada kuchh naheen karsakta. Jang akhbaar mein aaya tha. Unhon ne reference naheen diya. Lekin is link se kuchh tou madad milegi. Insha allah. Main nikla doosre wale waqeh aur us hadees ka reference dhoondne. wassalaam.

  30. @Adeel

    You narrated the following incident:

    Ek aur buhat mashhoor rivayat he jab Umar Farooq (r.a.) ne ek shakhs ko qatl kardiya ye jaante huey ke woh sahi kar rahe hain. Baad mein muamla Muhammad (s.a.w.) wassallam ke paas laya gaya. Aur is se pehle ke Muhammad (s.a.w.) koi faisla sunaatey ayat nazil hui. Jis ke ma’ani kuchh youn thay keh, Aap ye kya kar rahe hain, jo sahi he us ko hi saza suna rahe hain”.

    The verse you are talking about is in Surah Nisa, Ayat 65.
    In the reason of revelation of this verse, a few incidents are narrated and one of them goes as follows:

    Two muslim men had a dispute and came to Prophet Muhammad saw for judgement. Rasool Allah saw judged between them but they were not content and went to Umar ra. On hearing that they were not content with the judgement of Rasool Allah, Umar ra killed one man and the other ran away.

    I found this incident mentioned by Suyuti in his bio of Umar ra. However no classification of the narration is given there.BUT, in Tafsir Ibn Kathir this incident has been termed as Ghareeb, Mursal and Daeef.(i.e. IT IS NOT TRUE)

    Please read here: Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Para 5, Surah Nisa Ayat 65, pg 628 – 630.(urdu)

    http://75.126.222.101/data/ur/ih_books/ibnkthir/TafsirIbneKathir_Ur-Para05.pdf

    For full Tafisir of whole Quran by Ibn Kathir use this link:

    http://www.islamhouse.com/p/43357

    Therefore this incident can NOT be termed as authentic hence can not be used to justify killing a person.
    —————————–

    The second incident you quoted about the imam who used to read Surah Abasa and who was killed… and you gave the link of Jang – this has been Quoted by Amir Liaquat Husain in an article he wrote for jang. This does not prove it is authentic.

    I did not find any such incident in any book of biography that i have. So i have serious doubts about the authenticity of this narration, unless of course you provide a valid reference to it.

    Regarding the campaigns of Abu Bakar siddiq ra, He was the Khalifa i.e. head of the state and hence had full authority to declare war against them. However if you read history, you will realize he first sent messages to the apostates hoping to bring them back to Islam before he finally launched a full fledge war.

    http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Articles/companion/09_abu_bakr.htm

    So all i am saying is that on an individual level, one can not start murdering apostates! The state however has full authority to do so.

    and Allah knows best.

    I feel further discussion on this issue would be futile.
    Wasalam.

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